Thursday, August 14, 2008

IRC Logs August 14th

Agenda: -1) what is up 0) trunk 1) Sextante 2) Rendering 3) 1.1.0 4) headers

Jesse_Eichar Hi all

Jesse_Eichar its time I guess

Jesse_Eichar agenda?

volaya hi

Jesse_Eichar 0) what's up 1) Sextante

Jesse_Eichar anything else from your side jody?

mauricio hi

Jesse_Eichar To those who don't know volaya is Victor from sextante.

Jesse_Eichar (right?)
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volaya right ;-)

jgarnett good morning

jgarnett hi volaya

jgarnett 2) Rendering

mauricio welcome volaya

volaya hi jody

jgarnett it feels like a lot is going on; I suspect we are about to be so busy that 1.1.0 will never be released :-)

jgarnett is it worth putting 1.1.0 on the agenda?

Jesse_Eichar ok we can.

Jesse_Eichar lets go:

Jesse_Eichar you mind updating the title jody?

Jesse_Eichar 0) What's up
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Jesse_Eichar just made id moovida

Jesse_Eichar we are doing the 0) what's up

Jesse_Eichar Jesse: autobuild for trunk. I got a basic zip build going that I can run

moovida great!
jgarnett has changed the topic to “0) what is up 1) Sextante 2) Rendering 3) 1.1.0 4) headers”

moovida just came back

Jesse_Eichar working on packaging

emily_g emily: I'm about to remove emf from the rendering code

Jesse_Eichar SDI, Sextante (as per email) 1.1 is ready to go excepting 1 more sanity check

jgarnett jgarnett - doing a "live domain model" demo showing people moving dots on a map for a tutorial & testing the rendering system; workbench tutorial went up yesterday. Gathering up training materials for next week today; and doing a design session on an imrpoved rendering subsystem.

mauricio mauricio - deploy es.axios.udig.extensions rc7

Jesse_Eichar neato. when do you want a SDK?

Jesse_Eichar what out mauricio you're catching up to uDig ;)

mauricio hahah

Jesse_Eichar what=watch

mauricio yes

moovida Jesse_Eichar: a trunc sdk?

Jesse_Eichar no jody has training next week.

Jesse_Eichar mind you I could try making an sdk right during this meeting

Jesse_Eichar will have a report by the end...

jgarnett That would be fun Jesse; we can use it in testing a bit today; and I can basically run with it next week.

moovida I'm evaluating next moves and have to understand to do trunc before all and then everything after ON trunc, or if to do first things and then move to trunc

moovida we have a lot of work to do for Cape Town

moovida guis and manuals

jgarnett understood; from my standpoint I have no ability to work off of trunk (other than for training courses).

Jesse_Eichar trunk jody?

moovida you mean you have to work on trunk?

Jesse_Eichar are you training off trunk?

jgarnett I am mean I have to work on trunk; even applying patches to 1.1.x is a pain (and I cannot keep up with the problems we find and fix during the day).

jgarnett I am training off the stable branch next week - however this is the last time.

jgarnett During the course I have Chris Luft with me; and he will follow the tutorials on trunk and update the materials as he goes.

jgarnett So my training courses in September will be on trunk.

Jesse_Eichar right.

moovida I mean, I also would like to work on trunc and make the wizards for Simones tools finally

jgarnett ah yes - please :-) I also started that; and then I think we both stopped waiting for each other?

moovida I am just afraid that I could find some show stopper and that would be bad for my business

moovida jgarnett: no, I asked you to stop, ecause I wanted to help, so it is more my fault

KevinIPS jgarnett esta aqui!

jgarnett moovida you are important to us; I hope you do not find a show stopper. I have several teams going against trunk; and while we do not have time to fix the style themer - the ability to work with rasters is thus far worth it to us.

moovida is there a thought about a trunk sdk and version, on which to synchronize for Cape Town?

KevinIPS ...pero alli.

jgarnett um

moovida and if yes, then when?

Jesse_Eichar Soon.

jgarnett moovida we have no motivation / time to work on making an SDK - jesse is your best bet.

Jesse_Eichar I should have an sdk likely tomorrow but maybe next week

jgarnett trunk is version 1.2 if that is what you mena.

moovida I could take the efforth to migrate to trunk, but right now not that to create all the exporting and releasing environment

Jesse_Eichar its is just tweaking the features

moovida yes that wold be good.

jgarnett It takes around 30 mins to set up the development environment for trunk. Most of the work (downloading and setting up Eclipse 3.4 is the same as when you use an SDK).

moovida That could make me finally go on trunk by the weekend

Jesse_Eichar its true

moovida jgarnett: I understand, but I had some problems in the past with my exporting of products

Jesse_Eichar trunk is much easier...

jgarnett moovida ++

Jesse_Eichar mind you the release is not always the same as running :)

moovida and right now I would prefer to concxentrate on the migration

jgarnett I have not tried exporting udig from trunk; but I have released custom apps using udig trunk as a base.

moovida :)

jgarnett um gues we are way off our agenda...

Jesse_Eichar yep
jgarnett has changed the topic to “-1) what is up 0) trunk 1) Sextante 2) Rendering 3) 1.1.0 4) headers”

Jesse_Eichar what enxt

Jesse_Eichar trunk

jgarnett 1) Sextante

Jesse_Eichar ok

Jesse_Eichar Sextante

jgarnett (I wish gdavis was here to talk about IProcess and the ui work he did)

volaya yes, me too

Jesse_Eichar I don't have too much to say other than I'd love to see it rolled into Axios at some point

Jesse_Eichar Where was his UI work?

volaya I would like to know a bit more about the work they are doing at refraction with all that wps stuff and processes...

jgarnett I got a question Jesse; what do you mean rolled into Axios?
* moovida also

Jesse_Eichar :)

jgarnett It sounds like there is a framework I have not looked at yet?

Jesse_Eichar Well what I don't want is another view and another way of configuring the processes.

mauricio the axios extensions

mauricio required

mauricio more work to be a good framework

Jesse_Eichar It doesn't have to be really good though

mauricio but the principal problem

Jesse_Eichar (framework wise)

volaya i guess that there are two main thing: one is the process API and the otrhe is the GUI. We already have good APIs I guess, and they are quite compatible

jgarnett I want to get a good story going here; but the WPS team managed to complete their project and did not succeed in doing a breakout IRC or anything with Axios.

jgarnett volaya - and even if they are not we can figure out any differences and make improvements.

volaya yes, exactly

volaya the GUI might be a bit more difficult...but I do not know if axios or you at refractions have done much work on that

jgarnett perhaps I am missing something?
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jgarnett Is Sextante an Axios project?

Jesse_Eichar No

volaya no no...

mauricio No

mauricio only is an idea

jgarnett I was considering it something new; and the Axios framework Jesse refering to was the user interface screen snaps I have looked at on the web.

Jesse_Eichar that's right seemed most logical to me...

jgarnett (oh okay)

volaya but axios (AFAIK) is doing some work on integrating processes into udig

Jesse_Eichar that's why I thought it was a natrual fit. I didn't know that Graham has done a UI as well.

volaya so it would be good to coordinate our work

jgarnett As has the WPS team; Axios went ahead and made some very nice screens. The WPS team made a generic "property sheet" that can be used to enter in the parameters.

Jesse_Eichar How do you add new processes for WPS?

jgarnett Graham spent a lot of time getting property sheet to manage the "Add/Remove" when a parameter allows multiple entries.

volaya I suggest spending some time having a look at what the others have done. For instance, I would like to see that property sheet

jgarnett They have a page somewhere; I drag the WPS into the catalog

jgarnett it shows up

jgarnett I right click on a Process entry and open up a view

Jesse_Eichar How do you drag the WPS?

jgarnett the view lets me configure the process and has a run button.

Jesse_Eichar Does it have to have a GetCaps and be hosted?

jgarnett We also considered doing a wizard (much like the import or export wizards)

Jesse_Eichar IE sextante is just a library of algorithms

jgarnett yes it does; it works the same as a WMS.

jgarnett The uDig catalog entry for this stuff

jgarnett can be used to represent other services

jgarnett (such as an entry for GeoTools or an entry for Sextante

Jesse_Eichar we could do a MapGraphic like thing I guess

Jesse_Eichar right.

Jesse_Eichar Ok so we have 2 routes

Jesse_Eichar Axios suite

Jesse_Eichar or WPS.

jgarnett the idea is just to make the IProcess notes "searchable" in the Catalog. And then we can experiment with wizards and such like; cut down the list just what process work on the selected data etc...

jgarnett um; I think we actually have to make up a new route

jgarnett and learn from both?

jgarnett Axios to my understanding did not intergrate with the catalog? But they do have a nice start on user interfaces.

Jesse_Eichar Personally I think the Axios suite it more intuitive

Jesse_Eichar that is a good point.

jgarnett perhaps I am not clear; I do not care for the WPS user interface at all

jgarnett the important part was to get it in the catalog; so we could build nice wizards and or views.

Jesse_Eichar Axios's suite could get some of its processes from the catalog.

Jesse_Eichar got you

jgarnett Jesse_Eichar++

Jesse_Eichar you following Victor? Mauricio?

Jesse_Eichar or are you completely lost

mauricio that sound right

volaya yes, more or less ;-)

Jesse_Eichar cool

Jesse_Eichar we done! Solved the worlds problems.

jgarnett I do hope the WPS team gets another round of funding; or that anyone here does - and can obtain a mandate to think hard about process intergration from a user perspective.
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Jesse_Eichar What's for dinner ;)

jgarnett bytes

jgarnett So I would like to know who has time; I would like to see a page with some solid ideas on it over on the HACK space

Jesse_Eichar Any questions mauricio, victor?

volaya I have time i guess...

jgarnett and make sure we have a good understanding of what we want for the short term and medium term.

Jesse_Eichar Time is the difficulty. I am not sure when this will take place exactly.

jgarnett I would rephrase the statement as funding is the difficulty :-)

Jesse_Eichar I'd like before FOSS but might get to be part of the code sprint as well.

jgarnett aside: I am looking for a page along the lines of -

jgarnett A use case with pictures?
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Jesse_Eichar :)

jgarnett The Axios story here -

Jesse_Eichar ok if no more question from mauricio and Victor... We'll move on. But expect me to keep bringing this back up because iwant it to happen.

Jesse_Eichar ok rendering

Jesse_Eichar go jody

volaya ok...great ;-)

jgarnett is pretty good; looks like there is a list on the left (I would love to search it) and a "page" on the right ... and a nice run button in the tool bar.

mauricio ok

Jesse_Eichar thanks for attending Victor

Jesse_Eichar appreciate it

mauricio I need have a look in IProcess

mauricio and Sextante

jgarnett I will be away next week; but gdavis can answer some questions.

Jesse_Eichar fair enough

mauricio IProcess is in 1.1.x

mauricio or trunk?

jgarnett trunk

mauricio ok

jgarnett it involved introducing an api at the geotools level

jgarnett (so geoserver and udig could use the same facilities)

volaya if anyone has doubts with sextante, just ask, ok? I will be pleased to answer

moovida please take the IProcess discussion in the mailinglist

jgarnett I am most excited about seeing sextante served up via a WPS :-)

volaya i am too :-P

jgarnett shall we move on ...

jgarnett ... we have around 20 mins left.

Jesse_Eichar lets go

jgarnett 2) Rendering

jgarnett How to phrase this nicely .... help :-)

Jesse_Eichar Fixing Rendering/

jgarnett Actually we are not doing too bad Jesse; we are running through the rendering ideas.

jgarnett and have a design session scheduled for today.

Jesse_Eichar have any outstanding questions ?

Jesse_Eichar what are your requirements?

jgarnett make udig beautiful.

jgarnett actually it is to produce a GISWidget (you can see the first draft)

Jesse_Eichar where?

jgarnett that supports flicker free panning (we will take the fixed zoom level assumption for the first cut) and so on ...

jgarnett see email - the net.refractions.udig.project.widget package.

jgarnett demo is in net.refractions.udig.tutorials.rcp

jgarnett We just used ApplicationGIS.drawMap for the first cut; and will be having it keep its render manager in a few days

jgarnett and then I figure we will copy render manager and set it up to cache; work on fixed zoom levels and so on ...

jgarnett oh a couple problems we noticed:

jgarnett - the story of using a MapGraphic to draw a live domatin model is pretty weak (there is only one so you need to store listeners in the layer blackboard to watch your domain model and kick off a layer.redraw). That one is shaping up as a tutorial as well ...

jgarnett - A lot of renders make use of the viewport model; this is bad. When we ask them to render into tiles we will need them to respect the information provided by the Context

jgarnett (difference between world to tile; not world to screen)

Jesse_Eichar That is a bug certainly

jgarnett And the EMF Java 5 generics story is weak.

Jesse_Eichar all renderers should ask the context

Jesse_Eichar Well EMF that can be fixed but not easily

jgarnett The javadocs ask them to draw the minimum of viewport bounds and context bounds.

Jesse_Eichar it does support java 5 at last

Jesse_Eichar ok

Jesse_Eichar that is bad

jgarnett I am really sure I broke EMF by adding in Comparable; without knowing how to tell the EMF model what was going on.

Jesse_Eichar I told emily just to hack it and I'll fix it.
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emily_g hey jesse - i have at least one more question for you

emily_g "public class RenderManagerImpl extends EObjectImpl" can I remove the extends EObjectImpl?

Jesse_Eichar of course

emily_g and then do I need to be remove all the @generated tags?

Jesse_Eichar it isn't critical

Jesse_Eichar better but not critical

emily_g okay I'll try but I'm sure I'll miss some

jgarnett aside: GDavis some of the people interested in processes (From Axios and Sextante) may have some questions for you after the meeting.

gdavis_ ok

jgarnett Jesse I am going to be away next week; we will put up some design doc information on the wiki (end of the day? or friday?)

Jesse_Eichar ok

Jesse_Eichar I can look tomorrow

jgarnett could I ask if you could check in with the team - perhaps in a break out IRC - to go over the plan.

jgarnett that would be great.

jgarnett 3) 1.1.0

jgarnett So I do not know of anything that needs doing.

jgarnett I am finding and applying the occasional bug fix; but they are mostly cosmetic.

jgarnett I think this all comes down to when you have a moment to make the release Jesse?

Jesse_Eichar no must to say about 1.1.0

Jesse_Eichar I'm nervous ;)

jgarnett You could wait until after the training course next week if you want an extra round of testing; but changes have been minimal.

Jesse_Eichar that would be good.

jgarnett ha ha

Jesse_Eichar perfect actually

Jesse_Eichar I will make a release tonight

Jesse_Eichar put it online tomorrow and you can grab it

jgarnett okay; I will take it down with me. And I will try and be nice and send short emails about any problem to the devel list.

Jesse_Eichar it will ahve the update sites available (although Jans says his won't be online til next week)

Jesse_Eichar cool

Jesse_Eichar sounds good

jgarnett thinking

Jesse_Eichar Where are the release statements?

jgarnett the walkthrough 1 mentions my update site

jgarnett (they download a north arrow)

jgarnett but the update site is out of date?

jgarnett As far as I know that is the only glitch we have not fixed from the last round of training courses.

Jesse_Eichar hmm I guess so

Jesse_Eichar I should try to get them compiled an put back up.

jgarnett Good point; I will gather up the news releases and place them on the wiki.

jgarnett But really you just need to send an email to each company

jgarnett and each company can issue a press release.

jgarnett Jesse if you write down instructions on how to update the update site I can try and help out in the future. Right now there is nothing ...

Jesse_Eichar I don't really know to tell you the truth.

Jesse_Eichar I'm worried about clobbering the Axios suite

Jesse_Eichar ok

Jesse_Eichar next

Jesse_Eichar 4) headers

jgarnett right

jgarnett this is a customer question

jgarnett and one we will need to sort out as a PSC :-)

jgarnett right now we have everything in net.refractions.udig.* packages

jgarnett except for one bookmark plugin which I want to fix.
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jgarnett A customer I was working with would like to donate some of the code they had us write.

jgarnett but would like to keep their company name "somewhere" in the mix.

moovida nice, nice

Jesse_Eichar makes sense

jgarnett now the issues around (c) are just a matter of contract negotiation - something for Refractions to handle.

jgarnett The issue about what we accept into svn is a matter for the PSC.

jgarnett I would *really* like to keep the package names as net.refactions.udig.*

jgarnett I expect a lot of growth

jgarnett and I actually want to merge some of our plugins
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jgarnett and if we have "catalog" functionality being added I would like to see net.refactions.udig.catalog.XXXX

jgarnett just so we can keep our heads on straight.

jgarnett - that is my viewpoint only -

jgarnett For (c) there are two takes:

jgarnett - geotools take is to assign (c) so we have the ability as a community to change license etc; danger is refractions selling the project to someone else (see MySQL)

jgarnett (refractions has a pretty good reputation however)

jgarnett - the other take is to support mixed (c) headers; that occasionally scares away investment; but some large projects like PostgreSQL have managed to get away with it.

jgarnett I just want to get these two ideas out there for you to consider

jgarnett as it stands right now we ask for a standard udig header with a (c) refractions; and we stick to LGPL for the core SDK

moovida question

jgarnett (allowing a range of licenses for community modules)

jgarnett yes

moovida I mean, what if refractions would sell the project?

moovida the LGPL is last thing you would be able to use?

moovida what exactly do you mean is the danger

moovida and also, aren't you talking about JGrass or Axios with this?

Jesse_Eichar yes he is

Jesse_Eichar that is why we are talking right now.

Jesse_Eichar With you and mauricio

Jesse_Eichar Welcome to the PMC :)

moovida :P

mauricio :)

moovida alright, to be sure I got that right

Jesse_Eichar of course

jgarnett :-)

moovida I am pretty sure I am not able to be flexible on this

jgarnett You are correct we chose LGPL as a license - so customers would be confident

moovida I have in my copyright also A University department for some parts

jgarnett that udig would not be sold and they would be stuck on a limb.

moovida which builds on > 10 years of research experience in the hydro-geomorpho field

jgarnett So it sounds like mixed headers may be a requirement; rather than an option for us to consider?

moovida they would not be glad to give the (c) to a company

moovida would there be another option?

moovida something lie osgeo does?

jgarnett (note I am just talking about the stuff in the SDK here - currently refractions does have (c) for 95% of it)

moovida lie == like

jgarnett That is an option for us (ie us the PSC) to consider

moovida jgarnett: alright, that was why i was asking before, when you guys were kidding me

jgarnett the only advantage is we can as the PSC get the license changed (to say GPL+Classpath)

jgarnett the downside is that it may not be legal.

jgarnett (ie unless like the OSGeo we make people sign some stupid form)

moovida I don't understand where the thin line walks

jgarnett sorry moovida perhaps I am not explaining well.

Jesse_Eichar now I've been confused. You talking license or copywrite change jody? Or both?

jgarnett both

jgarnett actually sorry let me try again

Jesse_Eichar pleas

jgarnett 1) If we do a single (c) on all the headers - it allows us to change the license.

jgarnett 2) If we do mixed (c) headers - we have to hunt down everyone to change the license (and after a few years everyone cannot be found - so it is the same as saying we will be LGPL forever)

jgarnett Does that make sense now?

jgarnett That is a prgamatic reason for single (c) headers

moovida see geotools :)

Jesse_Eichar But not when tied to a company

moovida I see what you mean

jgarnett the other one is investment; organizations may be happier joining the project if they have a single company to negotiate with.

moovida Jesse_Eichar: also my thought

Jesse_Eichar How about a compromise.

jgarnett We the PSC manage the project for refractions; kind of like the GeoServer PSC manages GeoServer for the Open Planning Project.

jgarnett sure.

Jesse_Eichar Now I am just talking out my ass

Jesse_Eichar so don't hold me accountable for anything I'm about to say :PP

jgarnett Open to all suggestions; I mostly want us to consider the issue - talk away.

Jesse_Eichar One idea is we could have a (c) per PMC

Jesse_Eichar and if we leave we have to give up the (c)

Jesse_Eichar 2 we start a foundation

Jesse_Eichar 3) we join a foundation (eclipse?)

jgarnett aside: I did check with Jeff (a Refractions Director) before bringing this topic up - he is content with whatever we want for headers; his focus was on sticking with the LGPL license.

Jesse_Eichar we give refractions everything... (that could be problematic)

Jesse_Eichar sure sure. Lets vent all the ideas

Jesse_Eichar we have a heterogeneous (c)

Jesse_Eichar and ahve to track down people if we want to change license or join a foundation.

jgarnett The eclispe foundation would be the best move; OSGeo does not seem to be focused enough on "brand" for a project like uDig. We already have enough connections with that community via GeoTools etc..

moovida Do an own foundation would be lots of work, not sure if that would survive?

Jesse_Eichar preferences?

jgarnett Thinking

moovida Joining one would be a good thing to go.

Jesse_Eichar I have to run very soon.

Jesse_Eichar like 5 minute ago

moovida I can imagine that a PMC copyright would not be feasible

moovida :)

jgarnett I am not against mixed (c); I am content with the LGPL license. Only reason for me to consider a switch to GPL+Classpath exception is if it gets more traction as organizations learn to put up with Java being open source.

jgarnett If we are not doing mixed (c) I would prefer to stick to (c) refractions for now.

Jesse_Eichar sure

Jesse_Eichar ok

moovida I would prefere a single (c), but would have troubles if i'm not part of it

Jesse_Eichar well lets think on it and continue tomorrow I really have to go now

Jesse_Eichar later all
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jgarnett With respect to plugin naming; I really want to draw a line in the sand - it is a code organization tool (not an area for company branding). Allowing people to contribute company branding to the about box is fine for that sort of thing.

jgarnett okay; sorry guyes we went over time.

jgarnett Any additional thoughts?

moovida I agree with the thoughts

moovida and would be glad to wash away overhead

jgarnett I am confused by all the thoughts :-) (c) != my friend

moovida lol you are right

moovida You think eclipse foundation could be possible?

mauricio that could be a good idea

moovida yes, seems to me also :)

moovida I think that will be something for the next 1000 meetings

moovida alright, guess jgarnett is gone

mauricio :)

moovida thanks for the chat

mauricio it is a complx problem

moovida I finally get back to work

moovida You on holiday soon right, mauricio ?

jgarnett I am here

moovida ups, sorry

mauricio tomorrow

moovida then nice leave :)

mauricio good

jgarnett Okay; we should get plenty of warning before hacing to make any decision; but it is an issue and we should consider how our project policies effect others.

jgarnett Thanks everyone; I will post the logs.

moovida wait jgarnett

moovida one sec

jgarnett okay ...

moovida you have to work this weekend?

jgarnett oh - and volaya may of wanted to talk to gdavis?

moovida not that I want you to :)

moovida just asking

jgarnett I may be working Saturday.

volaya well, i guess we can just leave the discussion for th mailing list

moovida alright

jgarnett Why asking? Is there something you wanted me online for?

volaya i really do not have many thing to say know, and want to spend sometime having a look at the axios work, and even the jgrass work

moovida just in case my trunc goes mad :)

jgarnett ah

moovida to know if there is some guy online

jgarnett well set a time when you are going to try it out

jgarnett and send an email.

jgarnett emily_g updated the instructions

moovida I will do already tomorrow

jgarnett and we have had many developers follow them now.

moovida great, I think I will do it

moovida it is more for the export

moovida of product

moovida but I will experience it tomorrow

moovida just sorry i will be on macosx

moovida which I assume still is a bit a particular thing

jgarnett um

jgarnett cluft just did it

jgarnett (the guy who posted the workbench tutorial - on workbench seleciton and IAdaptable)

moovida export a product?

moovida aha

jgarnett oh right

jgarnett I have not tired exporting a product from trunk recently; or on a mac.

moovida well, I'll report on the mailinglist

jgarnett But wait he may of tried the custom app tutorial which includes an export step.

jgarnett Ask on the mailing list - yeah.

jgarnett okay i will post the logs now
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