Jesse_Eichar Hi all
Jesse_Eichar its time I guess
Jesse_Eichar 0) what's up 1) Sextante
Jesse_Eichar anything else from your side jody?
Jesse_Eichar To those who don't know volaya is Victor from sextante.
kartben has left freenode ("Leaving.")
volaya right ;-)
jgarnett good morning
jgarnett hi volaya
jgarnett 2) Rendering
mauricio welcome volaya
volaya hi jody
jgarnett it feels like a lot is going on; I suspect we are about to be so busy that 1.1.0 will never be released :-)
jgarnett is it worth putting 1.1.0 on the agenda?
Jesse_Eichar ok we can.
Jesse_Eichar lets go:
Jesse_Eichar you mind updating the title jody?
Jesse_Eichar 0) What's up
moovida (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #udig
Jesse_Eichar just made id moovida
Jesse_Eichar we are doing the 0) what's up
Jesse_Eichar Jesse: autobuild for trunk. I got a basic zip build going that I can run
jgarnett has changed the topic to “0) what is up 1) Sextante 2) Rendering 3) 1.1.0 4) headers”
moovida just came back
Jesse_Eichar working on packaging
emily_g emily: I'm about to remove emf from the rendering code
Jesse_Eichar SDI, Sextante (as per email) 1.1 is ready to go excepting 1 more sanity check
jgarnett jgarnett - doing a "live domain model" demo showing people moving dots on a map for a tutorial & testing the rendering system; workbench tutorial went up yesterday. Gathering up training materials for next week today; and doing a design session on an imrpoved rendering subsystem.
mauricio mauricio - deploy es.axios.udig.extensions rc7
Jesse_Eichar neato. when do you want a SDK?
Jesse_Eichar what out mauricio you're catching up to uDig ;)
moovida Jesse_Eichar: a trunc sdk?
Jesse_Eichar no jody has training next week.
Jesse_Eichar mind you I could try making an sdk right during this meeting
Jesse_Eichar will have a report by the end...
jgarnett That would be fun Jesse; we can use it in testing a bit today; and I can basically run with it next week.
moovida I'm evaluating next moves and have to understand to do trunc before all and then everything after ON trunc, or if to do first things and then move to trunc
moovida we have a lot of work to do for Cape Town
moovida guis and manuals
jgarnett understood; from my standpoint I have no ability to work off of trunk (other than for training courses).
Jesse_Eichar trunk jody?
moovida you mean you have to work on trunk?
Jesse_Eichar are you training off trunk?
jgarnett I am mean I have to work on trunk; even applying patches to 1.1.x is a pain (and I cannot keep up with the problems we find and fix during the day).
jgarnett I am training off the stable branch next week - however this is the last time.
jgarnett During the course I have Chris Luft with me; and he will follow the tutorials on trunk and update the materials as he goes.
jgarnett So my training courses in September will be on trunk.
moovida I mean, I also would like to work on trunc and make the wizards for Simones tools finally
jgarnett ah yes - please :-) I also started that; and then I think we both stopped waiting for each other?
moovida I am just afraid that I could find some show stopper and that would be bad for my business
moovida jgarnett: no, I asked you to stop, ecause I wanted to help, so it is more my fault
KevinIPS jgarnett esta aqui!
jgarnett moovida you are important to us; I hope you do not find a show stopper. I have several teams going against trunk; and while we do not have time to fix the style themer - the ability to work with rasters is thus far worth it to us.
moovida is there a thought about a trunk sdk and version, on which to synchronize for Cape Town?
KevinIPS ...pero alli.
moovida and if yes, then when?
jgarnett moovida we have no motivation / time to work on making an SDK - jesse is your best bet.
Jesse_Eichar I should have an sdk likely tomorrow but maybe next week
jgarnett trunk is version 1.2 if that is what you mena.
moovida I could take the efforth to migrate to trunk, but right now not that to create all the exporting and releasing environment
Jesse_Eichar its is just tweaking the features
moovida yes that wold be good.
jgarnett It takes around 30 mins to set up the development environment for trunk. Most of the work (downloading and setting up Eclipse 3.4 is the same as when you use an SDK).
moovida That could make me finally go on trunk by the weekend
Jesse_Eichar its true
moovida jgarnett: I understand, but I had some problems in the past with my exporting of products
Jesse_Eichar trunk is much easier...
jgarnett moovida ++
Jesse_Eichar mind you the release is not always the same as running :)
moovida and right now I would prefer to concxentrate on the migration
jgarnett I have not tried exporting udig from trunk; but I have released custom apps using udig trunk as a base.
jgarnett um gues we are way off our agenda...
jgarnett has changed the topic to “-1) what is up 0) trunk 1) Sextante 2) Rendering 3) 1.1.0 4) headers”
Jesse_Eichar what enxt
jgarnett 1) Sextante
jgarnett (I wish gdavis was here to talk about IProcess and the ui work he did)
volaya yes, me too
Jesse_Eichar I don't have too much to say other than I'd love to see it rolled into Axios at some point
Jesse_Eichar Where was his UI work?
volaya I would like to know a bit more about the work they are doing at refraction with all that wps stuff and processes...
jgarnett I got a question Jesse; what do you mean rolled into Axios?
* moovida also
jgarnett It sounds like there is a framework I have not looked at yet?
Jesse_Eichar Well what I don't want is another view and another way of configuring the processes.
mauricio the axios extensions
mauricio more work to be a good framework
Jesse_Eichar It doesn't have to be really good though
mauricio but the principal problem
Jesse_Eichar (framework wise)
volaya i guess that there are two main thing: one is the process API and the otrhe is the GUI. We already have good APIs I guess, and they are quite compatible
jgarnett I want to get a good story going here; but the WPS team managed to complete their project and did not succeed in doing a breakout IRC or anything with Axios.
jgarnett volaya - and even if they are not we can figure out any differences and make improvements.
volaya yes, exactly
volaya the GUI might be a bit more difficult...but I do not know if axios or you at refractions have done much work on that
jgarnett perhaps I am missing something?
acuster (email@example.com) has joined #udig
jgarnett Is Sextante an Axios project?
volaya no no...
mauricio only is an idea
jgarnett I was considering it something new; and the Axios framework Jesse refering to was the user interface screen snaps I have looked at on the web.
Jesse_Eichar that's right seemed most logical to me...
jgarnett (oh okay)
volaya but axios (AFAIK) is doing some work on integrating processes into udig
Jesse_Eichar that's why I thought it was a natrual fit. I didn't know that Graham has done a UI as well.
volaya so it would be good to coordinate our work
jgarnett As has the WPS team; Axios went ahead and made some very nice screens. The WPS team made a generic "property sheet" that can be used to enter in the parameters.
Jesse_Eichar How do you add new processes for WPS?
jgarnett Graham spent a lot of time getting property sheet to manage the "Add/Remove" when a parameter allows multiple entries.
volaya I suggest spending some time having a look at what the others have done. For instance, I would like to see that property sheet
jgarnett They have a page somewhere; I drag the WPS into the catalog
jgarnett it shows up
jgarnett I right click on a Process entry and open up a view
Jesse_Eichar How do you drag the WPS?
jgarnett the view lets me configure the process and has a run button.
Jesse_Eichar Does it have to have a GetCaps and be hosted?
jgarnett We also considered doing a wizard (much like the import or export wizards)
Jesse_Eichar IE sextante is just a library of algorithms
jgarnett yes it does; it works the same as a WMS.
jgarnett The uDig catalog entry for this stuff
jgarnett can be used to represent other services
jgarnett (such as an entry for GeoTools or an entry for Sextante
Jesse_Eichar we could do a MapGraphic like thing I guess
Jesse_Eichar Ok so we have 2 routes
Jesse_Eichar Axios suite
Jesse_Eichar or WPS.
jgarnett the idea is just to make the IProcess notes "searchable" in the Catalog. And then we can experiment with wizards and such like; cut down the list just what process work on the selected data etc...
jgarnett um; I think we actually have to make up a new route
jgarnett and learn from both?
jgarnett Axios to my understanding did not intergrate with the catalog? But they do have a nice start on user interfaces.
Jesse_Eichar Personally I think the Axios suite it more intuitive
Jesse_Eichar that is a good point.
jgarnett perhaps I am not clear; I do not care for the WPS user interface at all
jgarnett the important part was to get it in the catalog; so we could build nice wizards and or views.
Jesse_Eichar Axios's suite could get some of its processes from the catalog.
Jesse_Eichar got you
Jesse_Eichar you following Victor? Mauricio?
Jesse_Eichar or are you completely lost
mauricio that sound right
volaya yes, more or less ;-)
Jesse_Eichar we done! Solved the worlds problems.
jgarnett I do hope the WPS team gets another round of funding; or that anyone here does - and can obtain a mandate to think hard about process intergration from a user perspective.
kartben (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #udig
Jesse_Eichar What's for dinner ;)
jgarnett So I would like to know who has time; I would like to see a page with some solid ideas on it over on the HACK space
Jesse_Eichar Any questions mauricio, victor?
volaya I have time i guess...
jgarnett and make sure we have a good understanding of what we want for the short term and medium term.
Jesse_Eichar Time is the difficulty. I am not sure when this will take place exactly.
jgarnett I would rephrase the statement as funding is the difficulty :-)
Jesse_Eichar I'd like before FOSS but might get to be part of the code sprint as well.
jgarnett aside: I am looking for a page along the lines of - http://udig.refractions.net/confluence/display/HACK/Service+Property+Page+Proposal
jgarnett A use case with pictures?
kartben has left freenode (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
kartben (email@example.com) has joined #udig
jgarnett The Axios story here - http://udig.refractions.net/confluence/display/EN/Spatial+Operations
Jesse_Eichar ok if no more question from mauricio and Victor... We'll move on. But expect me to keep bringing this back up because iwant it to happen.
Jesse_Eichar ok rendering
Jesse_Eichar go jody
volaya ok...great ;-)
jgarnett is pretty good; looks like there is a list on the left (I would love to search it) and a "page" on the right ... and a nice run button in the tool bar.
Jesse_Eichar thanks for attending Victor
Jesse_Eichar appreciate it
mauricio I need have a look in IProcess
mauricio and Sextante
jgarnett I will be away next week; but gdavis can answer some questions.
Jesse_Eichar fair enough
mauricio IProcess is in 1.1.x
mauricio or trunk?
jgarnett it involved introducing an api at the geotools level
jgarnett (so geoserver and udig could use the same facilities)
volaya if anyone has doubts with sextante, just ask, ok? I will be pleased to answer
moovida please take the IProcess discussion in the mailinglist
jgarnett I am most excited about seeing sextante served up via a WPS :-)
volaya i am too :-P
jgarnett shall we move on ...
jgarnett ... we have around 20 mins left.
Jesse_Eichar lets go
jgarnett 2) Rendering
jgarnett How to phrase this nicely .... help :-)
Jesse_Eichar Fixing Rendering/
jgarnett Actually we are not doing too bad Jesse; we are running through the rendering ideas.
jgarnett and have a design session scheduled for today.
Jesse_Eichar have any outstanding questions ?
Jesse_Eichar what are your requirements?
jgarnett make udig beautiful.
jgarnett actually it is to produce a GISWidget (you can see the first draft)
jgarnett that supports flicker free panning (we will take the fixed zoom level assumption for the first cut) and so on ...
jgarnett see email - the net.refractions.udig.project.widget package.
jgarnett demo is in net.refractions.udig.tutorials.rcp
jgarnett We just used ApplicationGIS.drawMap for the first cut; and will be having it keep its render manager in a few days
jgarnett and then I figure we will copy render manager and set it up to cache; work on fixed zoom levels and so on ...
jgarnett oh a couple problems we noticed:
jgarnett - the story of using a MapGraphic to draw a live domatin model is pretty weak (there is only one so you need to store listeners in the layer blackboard to watch your domain model and kick off a layer.redraw). That one is shaping up as a tutorial as well ...
jgarnett - A lot of renders make use of the viewport model; this is bad. When we ask them to render into tiles we will need them to respect the information provided by the Context
jgarnett (difference between world to tile; not world to screen)
Jesse_Eichar That is a bug certainly
jgarnett And the EMF Java 5 generics story is weak.
Jesse_Eichar all renderers should ask the context
Jesse_Eichar Well EMF that can be fixed but not easily
jgarnett The javadocs ask them to draw the minimum of viewport bounds and context bounds.
Jesse_Eichar it does support java 5 at last
Jesse_Eichar that is bad
jgarnett I am really sure I broke EMF by adding in Comparable
Jesse_Eichar I told emily just to hack it and I'll fix it.
gdavis_ (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #udig
emily_g hey jesse - i have at least one more question for you
emily_g "public class RenderManagerImpl extends EObjectImpl" can I remove the extends EObjectImpl?
Jesse_Eichar of course
emily_g and then do I need to be remove all the @generated tags?
Jesse_Eichar it isn't critical
Jesse_Eichar better but not critical
emily_g okay I'll try but I'm sure I'll miss some
jgarnett aside: GDavis some of the people interested in processes (From Axios and Sextante) may have some questions for you after the meeting.
jgarnett Jesse I am going to be away next week; we will put up some design doc information on the wiki (end of the day? or friday?)
Jesse_Eichar I can look tomorrow
jgarnett could I ask if you could check in with the team - perhaps in a break out IRC - to go over the plan.
jgarnett that would be great.
jgarnett 3) 1.1.0
jgarnett So I do not know of anything that needs doing.
jgarnett I am finding and applying the occasional bug fix; but they are mostly cosmetic.
jgarnett I think this all comes down to when you have a moment to make the release Jesse?
Jesse_Eichar no must to say about 1.1.0
Jesse_Eichar I'm nervous ;)
jgarnett You could wait until after the training course next week if you want an extra round of testing; but changes have been minimal.
Jesse_Eichar that would be good.
jgarnett ha ha
Jesse_Eichar perfect actually
Jesse_Eichar I will make a release tonight
Jesse_Eichar put it online tomorrow and you can grab it
jgarnett okay; I will take it down with me. And I will try and be nice and send short emails about any problem to the devel list.
Jesse_Eichar it will ahve the update sites available (although Jans says his won't be online til next week)
Jesse_Eichar sounds good
Jesse_Eichar Where are the release statements?
jgarnett the walkthrough 1 mentions my update site
jgarnett (they download a north arrow)
jgarnett but the update site is out of date?
jgarnett As far as I know that is the only glitch we have not fixed from the last round of training courses.
Jesse_Eichar hmm I guess so
Jesse_Eichar I should try to get them compiled an put back up.
jgarnett Good point; I will gather up the news releases and place them on the wiki.
jgarnett But really you just need to send an email to each company
jgarnett and each company can issue a press release.
jgarnett Jesse if you write down instructions on how to update the update site I can try and help out in the future. Right now there is nothing ...
Jesse_Eichar I don't really know to tell you the truth.
Jesse_Eichar I'm worried about clobbering the Axios suite
Jesse_Eichar 4) headers
jgarnett this is a customer question
jgarnett and one we will need to sort out as a PSC :-)
jgarnett right now we have everything in net.refractions.udig.* packages
jgarnett except for one bookmark plugin which I want to fix.
volaya has left freenode ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
jgarnett A customer I was working with would like to donate some of the code they had us write.
jgarnett but would like to keep their company name "somewhere" in the mix.
moovida nice, nice
Jesse_Eichar makes sense
jgarnett now the issues around (c) are just a matter of contract negotiation - something for Refractions to handle.
jgarnett The issue about what we accept into svn is a matter for the PSC.
jgarnett I would *really* like to keep the package names as net.refactions.udig.*
jgarnett I expect a lot of growth
jgarnett and I actually want to merge some of our plugins
volaya (i=50183158@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ecc4e2ce59a90105) has joined #udig
jgarnett and if we have "catalog" functionality being added I would like to see net.refactions.udig.catalog.XXXX
jgarnett just so we can keep our heads on straight.
jgarnett - that is my viewpoint only -
jgarnett For (c) there are two takes:
jgarnett - geotools take is to assign (c) so we have the ability as a community to change license etc; danger is refractions selling the project to someone else (see MySQL)
jgarnett (refractions has a pretty good reputation however)
jgarnett - the other take is to support mixed (c) headers; that occasionally scares away investment; but some large projects like PostgreSQL have managed to get away with it.
jgarnett I just want to get these two ideas out there for you to consider
jgarnett as it stands right now we ask for a standard udig header with a (c) refractions; and we stick to LGPL for the core SDK
jgarnett (allowing a range of licenses for community modules)
moovida I mean, what if refractions would sell the project?
moovida the LGPL is last thing you would be able to use?
moovida what exactly do you mean is the danger
moovida and also, aren't you talking about JGrass or Axios with this?
Jesse_Eichar yes he is
Jesse_Eichar that is why we are talking right now.
Jesse_Eichar With you and mauricio
Jesse_Eichar Welcome to the PMC :)
moovida alright, to be sure I got that right
Jesse_Eichar of course
moovida I am pretty sure I am not able to be flexible on this
jgarnett You are correct we chose LGPL as a license - so customers would be confident
moovida I have in my copyright also A University department for some parts
jgarnett that udig would not be sold and they would be stuck on a limb.
moovida which builds on > 10 years of research experience in the hydro-geomorpho field
jgarnett So it sounds like mixed headers may be a requirement; rather than an option for us to consider?
moovida they would not be glad to give the (c) to a company
moovida would there be another option?
moovida something lie osgeo does?
jgarnett (note I am just talking about the stuff in the SDK here - currently refractions does have (c) for 95% of it)
moovida lie == like
jgarnett That is an option for us (ie us the PSC) to consider
moovida jgarnett: alright, that was why i was asking before, when you guys were kidding me
jgarnett the only advantage is we can as the PSC get the license changed (to say GPL+Classpath)
jgarnett the downside is that it may not be legal.
jgarnett (ie unless like the OSGeo we make people sign some stupid form)
moovida I don't understand where the thin line walks
jgarnett sorry moovida perhaps I am not explaining well.
Jesse_Eichar now I've been confused. You talking license or copywrite change jody? Or both?
jgarnett actually sorry let me try again
jgarnett 1) If we do a single (c) on all the headers - it allows us to change the license.
jgarnett 2) If we do mixed (c) headers - we have to hunt down everyone to change the license (and after a few years everyone cannot be found - so it is the same as saying we will be LGPL forever)
jgarnett Does that make sense now?
jgarnett That is a prgamatic reason for single (c) headers
moovida see geotools :)
Jesse_Eichar But not when tied to a company
moovida I see what you mean
jgarnett the other one is investment; organizations may be happier joining the project if they have a single company to negotiate with.
moovida Jesse_Eichar: also my thought
Jesse_Eichar How about a compromise.
jgarnett We the PSC manage the project for refractions; kind of like the GeoServer PSC manages GeoServer for the Open Planning Project.
Jesse_Eichar Now I am just talking out my ass
Jesse_Eichar so don't hold me accountable for anything I'm about to say :PP
jgarnett Open to all suggestions; I mostly want us to consider the issue - talk away.
Jesse_Eichar One idea is we could have a (c) per PMC
Jesse_Eichar and if we leave we have to give up the (c)
Jesse_Eichar 2 we start a foundation
Jesse_Eichar 3) we join a foundation (eclipse?)
jgarnett aside: I did check with Jeff (a Refractions Director) before bringing this topic up - he is content with whatever we want for headers; his focus was on sticking with the LGPL license.
Jesse_Eichar we give refractions everything... (that could be problematic)
Jesse_Eichar sure sure. Lets vent all the ideas
Jesse_Eichar we have a heterogeneous (c)
Jesse_Eichar and ahve to track down people if we want to change license or join a foundation.
jgarnett The eclispe foundation would be the best move; OSGeo does not seem to be focused enough on "brand" for a project like uDig. We already have enough connections with that community via GeoTools etc..
moovida Do an own foundation would be lots of work, not sure if that would survive?
moovida Joining one would be a good thing to go.
Jesse_Eichar I have to run very soon.
Jesse_Eichar like 5 minute ago
moovida I can imagine that a PMC copyright would not be feasible
jgarnett I am not against mixed (c); I am content with the LGPL license. Only reason for me to consider a switch to GPL+Classpath exception is if it gets more traction as organizations learn to put up with Java being open source.
jgarnett If we are not doing mixed (c) I would prefer to stick to (c) refractions for now.
moovida I would prefere a single (c), but would have troubles if i'm not part of it
Jesse_Eichar well lets think on it and continue tomorrow I really have to go now
Jesse_Eichar later all
Jesse_Eichar has left freenode ()
jgarnett With respect to plugin naming; I really want to draw a line in the sand - it is a code organization tool (not an area for company branding). Allowing people to contribute company branding to the about box is fine for that sort of thing.
jgarnett okay; sorry guyes we went over time.
jgarnett Any additional thoughts?
moovida I agree with the thoughts
moovida and would be glad to wash away overhead
jgarnett I am confused by all the thoughts :-) (c) != my friend
moovida lol you are right
moovida You think eclipse foundation could be possible?
mauricio that could be a good idea
moovida yes, seems to me also :)
moovida I think that will be something for the next 1000 meetings
moovida alright, guess jgarnett is gone
moovida thanks for the chat
mauricio it is a complx problem
moovida I finally get back to work
moovida You on holiday soon right, mauricio ?
jgarnett I am here
moovida ups, sorry
moovida then nice leave :)
jgarnett Okay; we should get plenty of warning before hacing to make any decision; but it is an issue and we should consider how our project policies effect others.
jgarnett Thanks everyone; I will post the logs.
moovida wait jgarnett
moovida one sec
jgarnett okay ...
moovida you have to work this weekend?
jgarnett oh - and volaya may of wanted to talk to gdavis?
moovida not that I want you to :)
moovida just asking
jgarnett I may be working Saturday.
volaya well, i guess we can just leave the discussion for th mailing list
jgarnett Why asking? Is there something you wanted me online for?
volaya i really do not have many thing to say know, and want to spend sometime having a look at the axios work, and even the jgrass work
moovida just in case my trunc goes mad :)
moovida to know if there is some guy online
jgarnett well set a time when you are going to try it out
jgarnett and send an email.
jgarnett emily_g updated the instructions
moovida I will do already tomorrow
jgarnett and we have had many developers follow them now.
moovida great, I think I will do it
moovida it is more for the export
moovida of product
moovida but I will experience it tomorrow
moovida just sorry i will be on macosx
moovida which I assume still is a bit a particular thing
jgarnett cluft just did it
jgarnett (the guy who posted the workbench tutorial - on workbench seleciton and IAdaptable)
moovida export a product?
jgarnett oh right
jgarnett I have not tired exporting a product from trunk recently; or on a mac.
moovida well, I'll report on the mailinglist
jgarnett But wait he may of tried the custom app tutorial which includes an export step.
jgarnett Ask on the mailing list - yeah.
jgarnett okay i will post the logs now